Fiona responds to Harald's arguments regarding Oct. 19 posting
Whenever I try to talk about The Crone and the ideas it contains, I am sorry. I always end up having to joust with some defensive, argumentative male. It is sad and tiresome. (See the comments box at 10/19 posting 'Breast Eyes' for the beginnings of this great debate.) Harald thinks my judgment of patriarchal society is too harsh and that my proclamation that we need to recover the 'divine feminine' is a sexist delusion...I think. Actually I'm not exactly sure what point he is trying to make.
Harald: Fiona: Ad hominem? Trying to read my mind?
Fiona: I do read minds, Harald.
Harald: Anyway, back to my new job as the devil's advocate. You said "The overarching theme is the reclamation of female, earth-based, humanistic values in our modern, patriarchal world. The divine feminine has been tortured, suppressed, censored, twisted and forgotten -- but has never been destroyed."
Fiona: Yes, that's what I said.
Harald: This reminds me of when Philippe Starck said "Today 80 percent of objects are unnecessarily macho. Apart from a machine pistol, I can't think of many objects which actually need to be extravagantly masculine!" But could it be that most people simply like these values?
Fiona: What does what Starck said have to do with what I said? You seem to be implying that it somehow invalidates my statement about the sacred feminine? I'm afraid it's on you to explain what your point is here. As for the claim that most people simply like these values, that is an assumption... I would argue that the patriarchal power structure is so all-pervasive that we are never presented with any alternatives, in fact we can't even conceive of them, we have been so conditioned to live with the status quo -- both men and women.
Harald: Example; why are so many women buying SUVs? Are they misled by patriarchal values?
Fiona: Absolutely. This only supports my point that we need to reclaim the divine feminine, and supports what I said in the last answer.
Harald: The other way round happens here. I live in a country where feminine values dominate (Hofstede, Dimensions of cultural difference), but it's still a patriarchy. What does that mean? Those are the kinds of things I meant when trying to separate the values from the people.
Fiona: You tell us what it means, Harald. You're the Nederlander.
You know, it looks like you are trying to pile up a number of vaguely related arguments to make it seem like I'm wrong, but if all you can do is make a big pile of invalid arguments, then you haven't won the debate. I believe there is a formal name for this kind of fallacy, but I don't know it off the top of my head. Any lawyers out there care to chime in?
Harald: You say "the female dieties (sic) that we are familiar with are portrayed as merciful". Ever heard of the Valkyrie? Or are you not familiar with them? Yes, I know about Siva and his phallus and that there are probably more evil gods than goddesse. There are more gods than goddesses anyway, I haven't counted percentages evil or good ones. Does Kuntilanak count? But enough of that (this was a fun one to research!).
Fiona: As for the (sic), are we writing a dissertation, here? I make a typo once in a while. I'd wager you do, too.
I am well aware of the rainbow of female deities that exist in human mythology, Harald. You missed my recent references to Kali in other postings. My personal understanding is that both women and men have positive and negative qualities, and that mythologies about gods and goddesses reflect these many aspects of humanity. Actually, the concept of the 'divine feminine' often includes the negative aspects. Ever heard of the original trinity? Virgin/Mother/Crone? In fact The Crone talks a lot about the dark side of the divine feminine. You should read it.
Harald: You say "The forces and conventions of patriarchy are wrathful in the sense that they are destructive and toxic." May I remind you that the world we live in has been constructed by that patriarchy, not destructed. We are not living in a pile of rubble. You are stressing only the negative side of masculine values like 'going out and building/discovering stuff'. The very instruments you are writing on and publishing with are products of patriarchal society.
Fiona: Re: the pile of rubble comment, may I remind you of something? YOU may not be living in a pile of rubble, but the victims of the vicious attack on Iraq by our unquestionably patriarchal U.S. government are. And so are many other victims of patriarchal aggression all over the world.
The positive contributions of patriarchy are beside the point. I am arguing about the negative ones. You want to talk positive contributions, that is another conversation. I'll be happy to. And... I guess you don't read much history because really history is nothing but a series of destructions that have happened because of ruthless patriarchal systems and regimes. Come on, Harald. It isn't a valid argument to say that just because patriarchy has made positive contributions that no negative ones have occurred. This is just mush-brained weakness. At least make a strong, manly argument. And by the way, there is scholarly research that indicates that mathematics originated in prehistoric matriarchal cultures... See The Crone. I doubt that we would have computers without mathematics.
Harald: You say "People who find force and fear attractive will be patriarchal -- conservative, nationalistic, religious, materialistic, and sometimes greedy, sexist, racist and violent. People who find understanding and forgiveness attracitve will be progressive -- liberal, humanistic, pacifistic, compassionate, non-judgmental and willing to share. [snip] These "feminine" values are self-evidently positive and good, even to the 'bad people' when they really think about them." Aren't you doing the Bush (or Hitler, or Spanish Inquisition, or witchhunt, or...) thing here? They are EVIL! EEEVIL I TELLYA!
Fiona: Hey, you're trying to hand out more monkeyshine. In what way are the characteristics I mention under the "patriarchy" list not patriarchal? Convince me that conservative, nationalistic, greedy [I should have said] religious FUNDAMENTALISTS are NOT patriarchal, please.
But the issue of assigning the qualifier 'feminine' to the list of progressive values does deserve to be argued very carefully. So I saved it for last.
Of course we realize that many men can and do have these progressive, so-called feminine values. By identifying them as feminine, I am not saying that only women have these traits. I am expressing the not unreasonable belief (arrived at just by living on the planet) that such characteristics really may be more dominant in women and women's culture. But this is a hot one. There are a lot of sources, like another great book Woman: An Intimate Geography (Natalie Angier) that give us new research showing that women can be just as aggressive as men (see chapter 15 -- In Defense of Female Aggression). In defining the "divine feminine", I am not attempting to negate the positive contributions of patriarchy, never said I was. I am invoking an ideal concept and asking people to put aside gender stereotypes and reflect more on how these qualities could change, heal and improve things, not argue against them on the grounds that assigning gender qualities to characteristics isn't helpful. What I am saying here is that perhaps you are missing the Big Point, Harald.
I do not hate men. I hate what the transgressions, mistakes, horrors, offenses, assaults, invasions, genocides, corrupt governments and cronies of patriarchy have done to cause suffering, and I want people to become aware by educating themselves. You cannot possibly believe that the current course we are on -- rampant exploitation and destruction of natural resources -- global warming -- widespread war and global economic oppression -- all being perpetrated on humankind by patriarchal systems and governments -- is progressive or desirable.
When you have read The Crone, then I will gladly joust with you some more, should you feel the need. But until you have done so, I won't put any more energy into this particular round of arguments.
I would like to thank you sincerely for causing me to think harder than I have in a while.
No hard feelings.
6:58:26 PM 
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