Lying and Power


An interesting discussion from the previous version of this blog.

November 14, 2003

Once again I'm going to bring something forward from the Familyman comments because I can't let it go by. "Ricky" writes:

I feel Familyman's pain. I am in the exact same situation. My wife of almost 17 years, who has always denied that she masturbates, seems to do just that with her vibrator about twice a month. I too am crushed. Even though I know that she masturbates, she continues to deny it! (I notice her vibrator moved and cleaned in the bathroom vanity, and I have caught her once when I inadvertently left an audio recorder running in a dresser drawer. She at first denied that she masturbates and then finally said it was the first and only time.) She explained that she was embarassed, that she feels masturbation is cheating. However, she continues to masturbate and lie about it. I am more crushed that she lies about the masturbation, than the fact that she does it. Also, even though we continue to have sex, she never cums and it is always vaginal. I cannot rub her clitoris, nibble her breasts nor perform oral on her. Will her masturbation lead to cheating? Why does she continue to lie? Why won't she let me help her reach orgasm? She seems to prefer masturbation. The deceit is the most painful.

Hello, Ricky? You "inadvertently" left a tape recorder running in your dresser drawer?

Riiiiiiight.

I think the major problem here is that your wife DOES NOT TRUST YOU. She doesn't want to let you "do things" to her body, or have any "control" over her erotically, or let you "make" her come. She doesn't want to open herself to you or "confess" anything about her inner life and responses because she knows you put a tape recorder in a dresser drawer to catch her masturbating. Even before you did that, she probably knew you were the kind of person who would stoop to looking for "evidence" to confront her with (and thus further destroy your sexual life together).

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you need to be told the truth about this situation. That was really, REALLY dumb.

I can understand why you feel so desperate. You feel unloved. You feel that she is witholding her sexuality from you for purely mean and selfish reasons, and not because she's desperate, too. But you really need to ask yourself why it is so enormously important to you that she admit her masturbation to you. Why do you seem to think she has to "confess" and "permit" and "allow" certain things to you?

Is it because you want to exert some kind of POWER?

Ricky, Ricky, Ricky. Use your head!

Your wife will never feel all sweet and sexy and willing toward you if your real goal in life is to Get Over on her.


11:21:58 AM   

Comments in response to this post:
Ricky and his wife are BOTH a mess: him for trying to record her actions; her for leaving a vibrator out in the open and insisting that she doesn't use it (not to mention for masturbating AND thinking that it's cheating); and both for (apparently) not trying to work this out together.
Raging Bee • 11/14/03; 8:45:55 AM
her for leaving a vibrator out in the open and insisting that she doesn't use it

Yes. Subconsciously at least, she wants him to know. Psychobabble might say she's trying to punish him. Or maybe she wants to be punished herself because she feels guilty about it?

(not to mention for masturbating AND thinking that it's cheating)

This might be just something she's SAYING to excuse her hiding it from him. She understands his concerns...he even thinks masturbation "might lead to cheating."

I agree she's got problems, too. But given Ricky's apparent focus on Controlling her, I can see why she's ducking and hiding and attempting to fight back passively ("forgetting and not letting").

Julia Grey • 11/14/03; 9:13:09 AM
I guess there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument here: which came first, her masturbating and being evasive about it, or him trying to control things?

Of course, both of them seem to have sexual hangups that predate both behaviors, which makes the chicken-and-egg bit irrelevant.

Raging Bee • 11/14/03; 9:56:45 AM
<snerk>

The purpose of gaining intelligence is to assess the situation. It MIGHT be turned to negotiating advantage; but this is an engineering problem, not a negotiating one. If she has hang-ups (and it appears that she does), then you need to create a comfort level for her to shed them. This means conditioning the ambiant environment as sex-positively as possible.

Note: "sex-positive" is not exactly the same as "romantic". If she is conditioned to look at sex negatively, then no amount of romance will turn her on. It may make her friendly, but it won't make her horny.

Roy Kay • 11/14/03; 10:02:17 AM
I guess there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument here: which came first, her masturbating and being evasive about it, or him trying to control things?

Does a husband have a RIGHT to know about his wife's masturbatory activities? There's a bit too much of a pejorative slant to the word "evasive."

Then again, it's also evocative. It shows you DO see the genesis of the problem. If you are trying to escape another person's attempts at control you become...."evasive."

Julia Grey • 11/14/03; 11:00:36 AM
Roy: I am curious as to what you mean by "conditioning the ambient environment as sex-positively as possible." I think my wife tends to look at sex negatively, and I wonder if you could give me some concrete examples of this "sex-positive conditioning."
Harry • 11/14/03; 11:18:33 AM
Good call Harry. Like many other guys here, I stumbled across Julia's blog here about 5 months ago and really enjoy here insight. Married for 8+ years, 2 young children and a wife with no sex drive ... sound familiar? That being said I'd like to here this theory on sex-positive atmosphere. Anytime we (guys) bring up sexual comments, we're just being sex starved pigs and suffer from the habitual one track mind (which has truth to it but also subconscious).
Steve • 11/14/03; 11:52:37 AM
Stay away from religion? >:>
Harald • 11/14/03; 11:59:54 AM
No, the husband does not necessarily have a "right" to know about his wife's jilling; but it's one of the things they NEED to discuss, at least in a general outline, if he is to do his part to mend the relationship - assuming, of course, that he wants to help mend it, and that she wants to help too. It's not so much about his "right to know" as about their need to be honest with each other.

Of course, one can shut the other out - as long as he/she is willing to deal with the likely consequences of such a decision.

Raging Bee • 11/14/03; 12:56:55 PM
Ricky, other guys are complaining that their wives have no sex drive. Your wife does. Why are you whining? I wouldn't be this hard, but a tape recorder in a drawer? Even accepting the "accident" part, you could have just turned it off without listening. Sounds like: "Honest officer, I only had one drink."

In the context of many posts here, you should be celebrating. Why look to make yourself unhappy?

I have to disagree with some of the comments about communicating, openness and honesty. Many people have private lives even with their most intimate partners. There are levels of communication, levels of honesty and comfort zones. Not every person can be honest and open about their sexual selves - or other issues in their lives/minds/hearts. That doesn't make them worse people or less happy and doesn't mean their relationships aren't fulfilling.

Also, the answer to the chicken and the egg is that the egg came first because the bird had to born a chicken to be a chicken. That's evolution. The reverse (chicken first) implies that a characteristic developed during life is inherited and that is a form of Lamarck's theory.

jonathank • 11/14/03; 1:16:48 PM
Sex occurs within two arenas: 1) Love and 2) everywhere else. As "love" has never been mentioned here, it's safe to assume we're in the "everywhere else" arena. (Lots of good, healthy, rewarding sex occurs in both arenas.)

In the everywhere else arena, sex can be directed toward 1) self-satisfaction, your partner's satisfaction, 3) mutual satisfaction. As Familyman never talks about sincerely satisfying his partner (he talks about "getting his" a lot) or both of them mutually (there's nothing mutual at all here), he must be out for his own satisfaction.

Like I said a lot earlier, he ain't gettin' any and he's pissed/his ego's bruised. His mate understands he's out for what he can get and she's not interested. (Good for her... but I'm sorry she's so damn frustrated with their relationship she only allows him to screw her, not make love to her.)

There are two possible solutions for the person who calls himself Familyman: 1) Fall in love with his wife and reap all the rewards of loving and being loved (probably too late for that) or 2) move on (to the extent that other than selfsex is important to him, that could mean either lots of long showers or finding another mate).

There may be a third solution but it's gonna be unbearably painful to Familyman (who is so self-centered he should be called "MeMan") that he won't even understand it: Grow up and learn what "supportive," loving" and "being an adult" means.

An observation: People who cannot share with another, that is, share within a cocoon of mutual trust, cannot love fully... the connection between them may be okay but it is never quite complete. Indeed, sharing is not instinctive for most of us--being animals that hunt for food, carry guns and are often afraid of the dark and all--but it can be nurtured. To the extent one can share, one can love and be loved more. Love and respect foments trust and sharing and both thrive where trust abounds.

Ron • 11/14/03; 2:53:11 PM
>Roy: I am curious as to what you mean by "conditioning the ambient environment as sex-positively as possible." I think my wife tends to look at sex negatively, and I wonder if you could give me some concrete examples of this "sex-positive conditioning."

Okay. That IS a fair question, and it varies from person to person. The key thing is to project an easy acceptance and interest in a lot of aspects of sex. Options:

1) Don't hide your own masturbation. If she isn't into it and you are in bed, then do it yourself, unintimidated by her presence. If she says something negative, respond "Well, I'm horny and this is one approach to enjoying that."

2) Vist sex sites, and treat that as normal. If you usually respond to interesting things on the net "Hmmm. Interesting." carry the same pattern into the sexual sites. Don't be excessively forceful about it, but treat it as a normal interested responce.

3) Develop relationships with women (on-line/off-line/both) who are fun flirts (and that may indeed lead to cyber-sex). You purpose is NOT to make adverse comparisons with your wife. The purpose is to create a normative pro-sex social millieu to counter the anti-sex milieu you are in now. Sooooooooo, be prepared to be assuring on that.

If she comments negatively on any of this, just look at her blankly and bemused. Convey that you simply don't comprehend the sex-negativity. Operate on the parity principle that you don't have to be sex-negative unless you want to, and she doesn't have to be sex-positive unless she wants to. (You may need varied phrasings on this to avoid seeming preachy.)

Roy Kay • 11/14/03; 2:55:28 PM #
Julia, you seem to be really quick to blame Ricky here, to an overloaded degree. You're all about saying that Ricky wants to control his wife, but you negelect to mention any problems the wife clearly has and you squarely place all the blame on Ricky.

I mean the wife is blatantly, obviously lying to him. Of course he's going become distraught and start putting tape recorders in dresser drawers! Could Ricky have handled it better? of course. He didn't mention anything about attempting to talk to her about and he should. But is he truly trying to control her? or is he simply confused about why he can't fully express his sexuality with his wife.

That couple REALLY needs to talk and talk long and hard about what's going. Giving Ricky the once over for "wanting to control" her isn't really helping them.

Brandon Blatcher • 11/15/03; 5:00:17 AM
i'm seriously disagreeing with brandon's comment, "Of course he's going become distraught and start putting tape recorders in dresser drawers!"

seriously, does anyone have the right to do this? it's one thing if you think your wife is having an affair... but she's masturbating. it's normal, it's natural, it's part of her sexual life.

personally, i think ricky is threatened by the fact that his wife can satisfy herself. after all, if she can do that why would she need him? i'm not a shrink, but it seems fairly obvious.

alyssa • 11/15/03; 7:13:16 AM
Brandon, it might help them if Ricky can acknowledge what's going on below the surface.

WHY is he so "crushed" and distraught by his wife's perfectly normal resort to masturbation that he resorts to such sordid behavior? Especially given that he says they're still having sex.

It's because he is feeling unloved, and because he is feeling unloved he becomes concerned with power issues. He has to acknowledge that he is ON THE WRONG TRACK by making this issue adversarial and making demands for information that he (and you, apparently) believe he has a right to.

This entire matter reminds me of a letter I received back in March, regarding a woman's attempts to find out about/put a stop to her HUSBAND'S private pleasures (he was masturbating to porno magazines and she was having conniptions). In both cases, the spouse is attempting to exert control, and the other spouse understandably resents it and resists.

Yes, this couple needs to talk. However, being confrontational about it and DEMANDING certain kinds of communication is going to do no good at all. Since this is a blog advising men what THEY can do to overcome their problems in this realm, Ricky needs to know that taking the attitude that he's taking is not only be useless, but might actually precipitate a worsening of his sexual situation.

If a guy is driving himself over a cliff, I'm going to yell at him to put on the brakes, not distract him by politely pointing out that his passenger might also have tampered with the engine back at the last rest stop. He can deal with the passenger's possible malfeasance once he's hauled himself back from the brink.

Julia Grey • 11/15/03; 3:30:36 PM
Roy, I think many women would take most of your prescribed actions (masturbate in front of her if she turns you down, openly visit sex sites, chat up women sexually online and then pretend you see nothing whatsoever wrong with it if she reacts negatively) as big, fat slaps in the face. Most women will read these gestures as expressions of contempt.

If a man wants to kiss his marriage good-bye, though, or precipitate a total screaming crisis, they'd be ideal. Not saying screaming crises aren't useful in a few extremely fargled circumstances, but as general advice to normal men who are already confused and angry and who might already be tempted to lash out blindly and stupidly because of that anger? No.

Julia Grey • 11/15/03; 3:40:27 PM
I have said this once and I am going to say it again and again. If he put the tape recorder in the drawer because he suspected an affair, then yes, he should have tried to talk to her about it.

But if she is masturbating, you can bet that it is more than just once in every two weeks. If she doesn't want to talk to him then it is a done deal and the sex has become a "power issue."

Has anyone stopped to think that she is trying to control him by withholding sex?

Lynn • 11/15/03; 5:05:03 PM
Okay, then. If someone has had anti-sex culutral conditioning hammered into their heads all their life, what's your prescription for counter conditioning? One thing for sure. Acceptance and semi-internallization of the adverse culture by the guy (or gal as the case may be) will NOT work. So, how do you set up a strong pro-sex culture in an anti-sex household.
Roy Kay • 11/15/03; 5:06:49 PM
Has anyone stopped to think that she is trying to control him by withholding sex?

She is NOT withholding sex. Ricky says they're still having sex. He's dissatisfied because she is not responding the way he wants her to. She's not coming, and she's not letting him do things that might make her come. He's unhappy because she won't let him do the things to her body that he wants to do or fondle the parts he wants to fondle.

I don't understand why people are not able to see why his fixation on what he is not getting from her (including her confession) isn't a major attitudinal problem, one that he should be working on. What good will it do him for us to say, "Yes, Ricky, you poor thing, you're so misused, your wife is just a bad, bad woman."

Even if it was true, how would that help him? It will only cause him to get more angry and feel more resentful and make more demands and feel more unloved.

On the other hand, re-examining his own contributions to her insecurity and distrust, looking at the way his feelings toward her have become distorted by his own insecurity and power-seeking CAN help him -- and her, too, eventually.

Being encouraged by random internet personalities to see the problem as "Poor Ricky" tells him he essentially, ultimately has little responsibility for it, and the corollary is that it's also something he can't do much about.

Yeah, she might be trying a power play, Lynn, but in an intimate relationship, what's the smartest way to answer a power play? More power? A bigger emotional gun? A nastier escalation? Bzzzt.

Julia Grey • 11/15/03; 7:18:47 PM

ORIGINAL COMMENTS ARE CONTINUED in Part 2.


BASIC BLOG:
Introduction | Disgust | Discomfort | Distraction | Insecurity | Anger | Fat Wars | Misunderstanding | Boredom | Infidelity | Technique | Motherhood | Aging and Depression | Bad Company | "Childhood Abuse and Sexual Fears" | "Counseling" | "When to Split" | "Being the Hero of Your Own Life"

OTHER STORIES:
Why Does She Masturbate? | Lying and Power | "Do Women Prefer Bad Boys?" | "Fiona's Story" | "How A Nice Guy Becomes A Dickhead" | "Ten Ways To Be A Lover" | "How It All Goes Wrong" | "Medicalizing Desire" | Paul's Dilemma | Who Am I? | Should I Ask Or Just Go For It?

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