Paul's Dilemma

Paul's Dilemma

October 4, 2003

Here's a letter from a reader for you to discuss among yourselves. What do you think is going on here?

"Paul" writes:

I've been working really hard to be considerate with my wife, and not "blow up" when things don't go my way, and help "remove the distractions" by showing some interest in house work and other things. And it seems to be paying off little by little.

I am also aware that my wife has a self image problem right now and desperately wishes to lose some weight. Our sex life has not really improved, but her interest seems to have risen considerably which means a WHOLE LOT to me.

Last night I came home and was there before her so I folded some clothes and put away as much of it as I could. I brought in the groceries when she got home without having to be asked, and got the kids to sleep on my own. She was all over me. She was kissing me passionately and telling me that she really wanted me, (and also she told me about this guy that was "obviously checking her out" at Wal-mart, and it obviously made her feel great to be admired, although she doesn't understand why because she feels fat. My wife is gorgeous, true, she's not a size 4 like she was when we dated but the weight she put on has been proportional and flattering. She is voluptuous.)

So things are going good, and I'm getting excited because I think my wife wants sex, but then she asked if I minded if she went to the gym, because she desperately wants to lose weight. I said "of course" because I want to be supportive.

While she was gone, I cleaned my self up, shaved, put on a little cologne (not much), and put on some lounge clothes. I also got the bed ready, lowered the lights in the bedroom. Got her bath ready, and laid out a towel and some sexy panties and got out some clitoral stimulating cream that I noticed while I was getting ready and that she hasn't used in a while and I know that she likes.

Since she was really expressing desire earlier I thought that she would appreciate my effort to get everything ready for her.

When she got back she was tired and feeling a little sore from the exercise, so right away I think, "It's not going to happen," but I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. I thought maybe when she saw everything I had prepared it would bring back some of those feelings she had earlier. She gave her subtle hints that it wasn't going to happen by suggesting we watch a movie or something like that when she got out of the tub, I told her I wasn't really interested.

She asked if I would like to take a bath with her, and I didn't really because I had just got out of the shower before she got there. (I know that she was trying to show me that even though she didn't want sex, she still wanted to spend time with me. Which is nice.) So instead of watching TV while she took a bath I decided to go talk to her, which she really liked.

I was talking to her and a friend of mine's situation with his wife came up. I told her about the advice I had given him (after reading your blog) and she was really intrigued by my insight, and asked where I had learned all that. So I told her about the blog. She was very interested, and glad that I cared enough to try to understand her point of view. I finally decided to just ask, if she didn't feel like having sex tonight. She said she probably would but she was just so tired and sore from the exercise that she didn't think she could. I said "Well that's disappointing, but I understand."

When I said the word "disappointing" she gave me such a look that I knew immediately that I had said the wrong thing. Do you think I have screwed up? Do you think she will think that all I have been doing was just an attempt to get laid and that I didn't really mean it, rendering it all worthless?

Do you see anything else that I did wrong that might have caused her to lose the spark that she had earlier that evening?

Also do you think that her affection toward me was because the "other guy" showed her interest?

She seems to always be affectionate (flirt, kiss, say sexual things in my ear) when sex is not possible. (the kids are up, we're at the in-laws, or in a public place like the movies) Then when we get alone and I think "OK now you can get what you want," she's not interested, and in-fact almost completely detached. Why? Is it my enthusiasm?

When I wrote back briefly to ask Paul if I could use his letter, he added:

I used to think she was avoiding me, by always seeming to find something to do as soon as the kids went to sleep, and then keeping herself busy until she had the "right" to use the excuse, "I'm too tired," but after reading your blog, I think that she genuinely did want to have sex with me, but the distractions of her "duties" would not allow her to feel intimate with me.

So she tried to accomplish something first, so that she would be able to allow herself to be rewarded. Of course it is always late by then and she doesn't finish before she is too tired to do anything but sleep, and my protests then only succeed in making her feel angry, inadequate, and unappreciated. All that led to coldness.

But now we are getting past the coldness, and I have learned to "bite my tongue" and "accept" it, and she is showing interest again. BUT I CAN'T TAKE THE FLIRTING. I have told her this, and she says it's not flirting at the time, she genuinely wants me, but she can't guarantee that it will happen and "life" as she puts it usually decides that it won't. But what I am interested in, is what happens to the hot and ready wife at my mother's house when we get home 10 min. later? or when the kids finally get to sleep? Does the realization that she might have to act on those feelings she confessed earlier scare her? or is she really that tired all the time?

I think this is a fascinating situation and I have a number of ideas about what is going on which I will give when I get back, but in the meantime, I'd like to ask all you readers out there: what do you think is going on here? What is your take? What would YOUR advice be? Hit the comment link below and pontificate, or use the envelope link to email me.

Comments:

I have two suggestions (that are not necessarily mutually exclusive): 1. Take the laundry out of her hands, or the dishcloth, or whatever, say to her "*I* will do that later". (And then you have to actually DO that later, by the way, or this'll be the LAST time you have sex!) You have to essentially get across the point that you have GOT to be intimate with her, RIGHT NOW. Think of romance novels - the heroine often says "no" weakly to the hero, as he "forces" his kisses on her. I would NEVER suggest this for strangers, by the way - only for committed couples. She definitely seems to be passive/aggressively provoking you to want her - maybe she's just waiting for you to "follow through". Maybe instead of saying "I'm disappointed but I understand", she was hoping you'd say something like "But I want you so badly, and you look so hot in that tub, fresh from the gym, and I'm so jealous of that guy checking you out..." 2. Did you ever see that Friends episode where Joey is participating in some sort of sperm-related medical experiment and his girlfriend wants sex (which he cannot have due to the terms of the experiment). Monica asks if he'd thought about being there "FOR HER", if you know what I mean. When she kinda sorta turned you down, you could have suggested "well, how about I just take care of YOU, then?" I wouldn't guess you'd have to do that more than 2 or 3 times... PS, I think you're definitely on the right track with the work around the house, too!

catnmus • 10/4/03; 3:30:52 PM

I'm with catnmus on the second suggestion. How about giving with no expectation of receiving? "You're tired, that's fine, I just want to rub your calves."

Now the hard bit is that you have to be sincere in that. You can't be treating it as a stepping stone, if she says "thanks, my legs feel wonderful, now I'm off to sleep", then that's how the evening worked out. But as above, my guess is you won't have to do that more than 2 or 3 times, and if you do, it's because you were leading too much on the first few times.

I find that sex really happens much more easily when it's not the focus, when I'm really concentrated on connecting and communicating with my partner.

Dan Lyke • 10/5/03; 2:22:32 PM

Just to clarify, in case I was being too subtle. I wasn't talking about just rubbing calves!

catnmus • 10/5/03; 2:30:11 PM

And perhaps I did you a mis-service by tying your words to mine.

I'm thinking particularly of the night when I met my current partner. A bunch of us were hanging out naked in the hot-tub of a mutual acquaintance[1], and as often happens in such circumstances, there were backrubs and the like being exchanged[2]. One guy was rubbing any female feet he could get his hands on, and trying to advance up the ankle. I was rubbing feet, not jumping around too much, and doing nothing but rubbing feet.

He, of course, kept getting shot down every time he'd try to work higher. I was getting invited up the calves. And the difference was that he was goal oriented, I was perfectly happy to just experience the process. The net result was that I had the option of reaching his goal. He never did.

Paul's wife is looking for the intimacy, the idea that he enjoys spending time with her, and that she's not just a means to an end. Even at a subconscious level, she'll react negatively if she's being pushed. You can't bypass the intimacy, but if you're willing to drop back and allow the intimacy, to give what needs to be given, then my experience is that both participants will get what they want faster.

There's also something positive to be said for the "I'm going to jump your bones. Now!" action, but it's got to be done with care, especially after a cold spell, because, again, if it's just a means to an end she'll close down so hard he won't see sex for another decade. It's the difference between "I have to get off, now" and "I want *you*, now". Make it the latter, and he's golden. Make it the former, and he's... errr... I was gonna say "screwed", but that's almost exactly wrong.

[1] Who also happens to be one of the better known teachers of Tantra in the U.S.

[2] For various reasons, I no longer find myself hanging out with that crowd, but there was a while where I felt self-conscious 'cause I was the only non-Certified Massage Therapist in any particular gathering...

Dan Lyke • 10/6/03; 2:08:30 PM

I wish I could provide any useful assistance. All I can say, though, is, "Amen!" to the idea that the flirting has to stop, when the flirter isn't prepared to follow through. Because, my S.O. lives several hours away, and we see one another only every other weekend. And in the weeks between, it's all, "I want you so much," &c. and she gets here and ice descends. She'll even be delighted with my giving, ah, "attention" to her, but when I suggest that perhaps I'm interested, she's tired or she doesn't really know or, "why can't we just cuddle?"

She attributes it to the wave-like nature of her sex drive, which seems to come (rarely) and go (quite often) without rhyme or reason...

Oh, now I've worked myself into a terrible mood. ;) I'm going to eat ice cream.

laura • 10/6/03; 7:20:08 PM

I think you were right to tell her you were disappointed. You were. That's just a fact. Reading your letter I knew she wouldn't be receptive to sex once she got back from the gym. She wasn't feeling attractive. Have you told her you like the extra pounds on her? It's hard to give advice without knowing either of you, even just a little. But, I think she needs to believe you find her sexy. It's not enough to just say it or just show her. You need to do both. Maybe it's too flakey, but, I wonder how things would go if you met each other somewhere, pretending not to already know each other. Maybe there would be less pressure to perform for both of you.

Anyway, good luck, don't stop doing the housework. You have no idea how much there is to do and how under appreciated it all is.

Another Laura • 10/6/03; 10:59:16 PM

You must discuss your disatisfaction and mention that you want to preserve your love for her. Then tell her you plan to go to hookers till she comes across 5 days per week. Try jerking off and cut out the middleman...this way you know yourself best and don't have to plead, beg, be subtle...and all at your own time and convenience. Let her know she is unwomanly. Go to porn on the Net and run up some bills and she will see if saves much money to come across more often. Let her know what god intended for women to do in marriage.

Dr Onan • 10/13/03; 1:07:55 P

October 8, 2003

I think most of the commenters had much the same reaction I did. Paul is a little too "goal-oriented" here. It's perfectly understandable. He's feeling sexually deprived and his wife's "warming up" seems to be proceeding a little too slowly for his taste. She, like many women, probably doesn't understand that a lack of sex makes him feel Unloved, and that makes his helpfulness and sweetness harder for him to sustain.

But when a woman's libido is starting to come back to her, it's sometimes a fitful process. I think Paul is a very understanding and patient husband. He understands that she has insecurity issues (feeling "too ugly to be sexy"), subconscious worries about whether she "deserves" pleasure, and that distraction still has the upper hand. But what he may not realize is that she is probably also picking up on his single-mindedness when it comes to sex.

He's doing all these things to GET SEX. It's okay to do that, of course. After all, that's what I'm advising, on the surface. I'm saying, look at all these possibilities that may be interfering with your wife's ability to want you, and then make some changes, shift your behaviors (help out, think about what she wants, etc.), so that you can get in the sack. That's the top note of my message here.

But that kind of thinking can also very easily shade over into utilitarianism. Think about a predatory guy in a singles bar, a really successful Lothario. What does he do to seduce women, to get all the one night stands he wants? He deliberately, cooly plays the part of an attentive, romantic, wonderful guy. Not because he really likes or appreciates the particular woman he's with, not because he wants to initiate a deep and intimate partnership with her as an individual, but because, well, he wants to get in her pants.

So if you find yourself sizing up your wife as "prey" in this way, constantly calculating, manipulating, "working on" her so you can, as Paul put it "get what I want," maybe you need to step back a little. Because she's going to sense what you're thinking. She's going to feel the underlying pressure toward the "goal" -- maybe not consciously, but since she knows you better than a woman can know a strange guy in a bar, she'll pick up your Agenda vibes a lot more easily.

Paul can sense what his wife likes. She likes it when he comes into the bathroom to talk to her when she's in the bath-tub. She wants to be with him, communicate with him, respond to him, have him respond to her. She's intrigued that he's researching marital issues on the web. Paul is smart and loving and he thinks his wife is sexy, so this marriage is going to go gangbusters pretty soon.

I'm not sure exactly what is going on with the "teasing" scenarios, but here's a couple of possibilities.

1) It can be a passive-aggressive power trip.

2) Fear or distrust derails the follow-through.

3) It's fun and exciting, especially for a woman who's just recovering her libido, and she may misunderstand how overtly invitational it feels to her husband.

I think it's possible that all of these things are operational here, but it's most productive to assume the best. How to cope? Play along. Learn to love to be teased. Paul says he "can't take it," but that's probably because he is so fixated on what he feels it's "supposed" to lead to. Think of it as part of an overall atmosphere of sensuality between you. Not every touch and kiss and fondle has to be an overture to some Main Event. Try out some "teasing" of your own, a little stroke or two that you really don't mean to be taken as an approach. Relax about it.

I think Catnmus's idea of trying to press forward a bit, be a little aggressive, might be a good one, but again, the key is that you are overwhelmed by love and her beauty and sexiness, not that YOU Gotta Have It. When I was contemplating that scene where he was talking to her in the bathtub, I was thinking, "that would have been a perfect time for him to have said, 'God, you're gorgeous in there with your pink breasts floating like that, it makes me want to eat you up,' instead of, 'Hey, are we going to have sex when you're done with your bath?'" That was probably a little too flat-footed. Think subtle, think gradual, think "maybe," think seduction. His confession of disappointment, although admirably honest, might have only confirmed to her that all the delightful interaction so far was just "goal-oriented." It's a tricky time, this early recovery phase.

It's difficult, I know, to relax about this stuff when you're so anxious to get some, finally, when you've been getting so little (or none at all), and especially when it's starting to look more and more possible. But really, when you come right down to it, this isn't a game you're trying to win, or a prize you can automatically get just by following all the rules. It's a matter of reconstituting a woman's trust in intimacy and pleasure with you, and that, paradoxically, means not becoming too frantically focused on having sex.

Damn. You didn't think it was going to be this frickin hard, did you?

I'm sorry. But I guarantee it's worth it in the long run.

Comments in response to this post:

This seemed like the perfect example of the split in consciousness between men and women, where men tend to be achievement-oriented and women affiliative-oriented.

In other words, he's looking to score and she's looking for the relationship. Paul's thinking is "If I check off all the boxes -- laundry? check; dishes? check; hygiene? check -- that I'll score". Wife is looking for re-engagement at a different state of intimacy, which may not include sex until a certain comfort-level has been reached. (Comfort may be complete removal from those things representing work and responsibility, BTW; returning to the house from Mom's was a perfect example. No work/responsibility at Mom's house, but her own house is nothing but that. A complete turn-off to walk into a house that's little more than work and more work.)

It's not quite as simplistic as Mars-Venus, but awfully close. There's a point at which checking off some of the boxes does get Paul closer to the state of intimacy which includes sex, but it's not all about the boxes. It's about re-establishing their relationship for her.

Maybe understanding what intimacy means to a woman is more important at this point in the process. Perhaps he should be working on the romance *only*, understanding that there may be no sex in the interim; it's about the emotion, not the physical. When she's able to emotionally shift gears, the physical part will catch up, but emotion has to be there first.

I'd suggest investing some time planning a vacation with her away from home, with the understanding that spending the time planning together is relationship-building necessary to "scoring" on vacation.

Rayne • 10/8/03; 2:22:52 PM

I am continually amazed at how well vacations work to reconnect me with my body and my love.

But sometimes coming back to non-stop post-vacation crisis management can bomb that sensual, relaxed, romantic aura of "being away" to smithereens in a matter of hours. The contrast with "real life" can be especially traumatic if you're just tentatively getting back into each other again.

Julia Grey • 10/8/03; 4:24:58 PM

That's exactly why I emphasized the investment in time spent planning together -- it's time that's NOT in the blissful vacation zone, but it's relation building at work.

Rayne • 10/8/03; 4:39:31 PM

Besides, planning a vacation is FUN.

Julia Grey • 10/8/03; 5:32:44 PM

You all are right on the money. I know that she feels everything I do and say are "leading up" to something. She will hardly accept a compliment, she DOES NOT ALLOW me to flirt. (or at least touch her when she is not in the mood. Which is why the flirting can be so exasperating. She touches me, I can't touch her. you know. :) )

The thing is I'm not all about sex, but I get misunderstood I think. I'm not sure how to overcome that. If I reassure her or tell her she's sexy, she doesn't buy it. She thinks he just wants to have sex with me. I can't flirt and be playful because she doesn't see it as playful, but cave man groping. (and the double standard there isn't fair.)

It's like she wants to work it out on her own with no help from me. I think she wants me to just be there when she needs me, be a good "friend" to her and let her tell me when she wants sex.

I tried the suggestion on one of the posts about trying to plan. I asked her if she wanted to plan a "stay at home" date. She playfully said, "You mean a stay at home sex night." I said "NOOO." She said, "Why not." I said, "If that happens great, but if not we can just relax together. When do you want to do it?" She said, "how about Friday?"

That was Monday, and we talked about it again on Tuesday. I asked her about it Wednesday to see if she wanted me to rent a movie or something, and she had honestly forgoten all about it, and did not remember even having the conversation with me. And was hoping to have Friends over instead.(which I find suspicious she always wants people around, but then again she does that sometimes.) So I thought, "Here we go again, she's gonna blow me off again." But I didn't fuss, I just told her I couldn't believe she didn't remember.

So I was dissappointed, but didn't say anything, and that night while we where about to go to sleep, we had this incredibly hot kiss, and right after she said, "Well, I guess we can have our date Friday, no one's really in town anyway." That is very encouraging!!! Glad I'm a good Kisser. J/K

P.S. She was raped as a child by her brother. She says it doesn't bother her and that it's not a problem, but this all started about 1 and half to two years ago when he came back to live with her parents.

Paul • 10/9/03; 8:59:38 AM

It's not just me that she won't take compliments from. Recently she found out that according to the teen age guys at the school where my daughter goes to pre - k, she is the "hot" mom that they all talk about everyday when she comes to pick up my daughter. I could tell she was flattered, but she says, "There must be something wrong with them to think I'm Hot."

She recieves alot of compliments from a lot of people, and her standard response is, "I'm glad you think so."

She just can't believe it for herself. I think this is a good example of the fact that a woman's self image can has a huge affect on her emotions, and it doesn't matter what people say about her if she doesn't believe it.

She said the other day, "If we could both loose some weight and get back into shape like we used to be, I bet we would be "getting it on" every night. So I can tell this is a big issue to her.

One other thought. I know that getting attention from me without expectations, or without my having an alterior motive is very important to her as well. Once she said, "I wish we could just be friends for a while." (That sounds bad, but if you heard the whole conversation she was meaning she didn't want everthing to be about sex and romance; she just wanted to be able to have fun with me sometimes.)

Keep the thoughts coming they are really helpful!

Paul • 10/9/03; 10:54:41 AM

A couple of thoughts, Paul. You reported that she said "if we both could lose some weight..." We know she has problems with her own appearance. How about with yours? Have you "let yourself go"? Maybe going to the gym could be something both of you could do together. I know that the YMCA my wife and I used to go to had a day care facility for our daughter, which made it nice. A lot of what you're saying is mirrored in my own experience with my wife. We've made love exactly twice this year, with no sign of improvement. I've been checking Julia's website daily for anything that will help, and I've found a lot, but mostly with ways to help me cope with my own sense of disappointment and loss. My wife has gained weight, too, and while I still find her sexy and appealing, she has a poor self image. She's on the Atkins diet now, and I support her by not eating any carbs around her, which she appreciates. I do a great deal of housework, including laundry, dusting, vacuuming, plus all the yardwork. At first I did it with the whole "goal-orientation" thing...if I do this, she'll want to have sex! But now, I just do it because, well, you do it once and it becomes YOUR JOB FOREVER. Actually, I do it because I know she likes to see that I'm making an effort, and I do like a clean house...just not as clean as the house she wants. Anyway, I'm rambling. Keep us updated, Paul!

Harry • 10/9/03; 12:39:54 PM

I have put on about 30 to 40 pounds. I definately don't look as good as I did when we first got married, but I don't look awful. I know she want me to lose weight for my own good, and I am trying, but I don't think my apperance it the problem. She obviously still finds me attractive, but just seems to have a problem going through with it.

Also I live in the smallest town you can possibly imagine in rural North Louisiana. There is only one "gym" and it is owned by her uncle. It has only a few machine, just enough to do what you need, but I promise there is NO day care. :)

I was taking Karate, and working out and different things like that earlier this year to get into shape, but she threw an outright fit. She wanted me to come straight home after work and be with her and the kids as much as possible. I was ticked, didn't talk to her for a couple of days, but that's over now and I come home straight after work, and she goes to the gym and comes home tired every night. :)

Paul • 10/9/03; 2:01:38 PM

"P.S. She was raped as a child by her brother. She says it doesn't bother her and that it's not a problem, but this all started about 1 and half to two years ago when he came back to live with her parents. "

Um, bingo? Paul, do you know if she ever received therapy after the incident(s)? Do her parents live close by, i.e., is her brother near by now since he's moved back in with them? It seems to be that this issue bears further exploration/discussion.

carol • 10/9/03; 2:13:35 PM

Being raped by your brother is not something she's over. But I don't know if discussing it is the right choice.

I can give you two examples of intimate relationships affected by varying degrees of sexual/emotional abuse. One frankly is now more comfortable living alone. That's her choice. Is it the absolute best she can do? Of course not, but that's what does do and it's not up to me or even her to completely rebuild her psyche.

The other has an on/off problem similar to what you and many others describe. I link that more to emotional abuse, but it's not like I've done a comprehensive study. I'm fairly sure that the emotional abuse creates more body image problems, while the true sexual abuse creates more intimacy issues. But that's probably my personal experience - that a startling percentage of the lovely women I've known have been physically abused.

In other words, there are some things you just have to accept. I suggest you keep coming back with different approaches until progress is made. Don't expect the progress to be permanent, but you can use it to restart when the switch is on off.

In the end, as long as you keep this in the perspective of your overall relationship, you'll manage. You're not married just to bang her.

jonathank • 10/9/03; 2:30:09 PM

Yowch..."p.s."? That's hardly a puny little pile of dust swept under the carpet, it's more like the 3000-lb. elephant in the corner nobody is talking about.

I think there's a lot more going on there that's compounding any problems the two of you have together (I'm wonder what her relationship was like with the uncle who owns the gym, as well as other men in her family...). Whatever it is, continuing to work on being there emotionally will be important.

Rayne • 10/10/03; 9:07:19 AM

Forgot to add that in light of previous history of sexual abuse/violence being more aggressive may not be the ticket here.

Bet Julia's got something to add about this, I'm sure.

Rayne • 10/10/03; 9:10:53 AM #

She get's along great with all the men in her Family. There's her Dad, his Three brothers, her Grandpa, and her brother. She loves and enjoys spending time with all of them, and works for two of her uncles. She is civil and caring toward her brother, but resents him and the lifestyle he leads. She refuses to expose him for what he did to her because she dosen't want to ruin any chance of him being a part of the family, since he has so many other problems. (Drug Abuse, lying, stealing, etc.)

The two major problems she deals with are anger, and self-image. She has a terrible temper, and gets set off fairly easily, and even though she is tall and beautiful, and most of her life was a size 2 to 4, and gets countless compliments, she still thinks she is ugly and everyone is just being polite and don't really belive what they say. Especially now that she has put on about 20 pounds.

She also gives up on things easy. She has big dreams, and many interest but seldom follows through on anything. It doesn't take much for her to get discouraged and feel like it's hopeless or she's not good enough.

She wants to go to college, and plans to, but everytime it gets serious (take a test, pick out classes, call admissions) she puts it off an eventually gives up.

As far as our marriage, most of our problems seem to stem from her anger and amazing ability to hold a grudge, and her feeling ugly which is completely untrue

I'm sure that her past has a direct affect on alot of these things, but I don't think it is what keeps her from me.

On another note, she has had many female problems. Troublesome cysts, threat of endometriosis (probably not spelled right, but it's bad news.) At one time she had an uncurable muscle condition called Fibro Mialsia (again probably not spelled right.)This muscle condidtion made her constantly stressed and irritable and made her not able to sleep which made her more stressed and irritable, but God healed her of that while she prayed at the alter.

And worse of all she has what she calls, "The plague" which is psoriasis. She has it on her head, fortunatly under her hair but still very painful, stressful, due to the large flakes that occasionaly show up. (She hides it very well and most people never know she has it, but she knows and it is a constant worry.)

And she has psoriasis on her genitals, (under the pubic hair above her clit so it's not actually around her vagina opening or on the clit but more on the pelvic bone, if that's the right turn.) The condition goes in cycles and gets worse then better then worse, sometimes it gets so dry that it cracks and bleeds which is very painful. During those times there is no sex. I bring this up because of Julia's Discomfort section. I wonder if it is uncomforable everytime to some degree. She has never said, maybe she doesn't know any different. I know that alot of times when we are finished she experiences "burning", and has to "clean up" immediately after EVERY time to avoid the "burning". If she does experience discomfort everytime I wonder if anything can be done. Most lubricants irritate her, I don't know why but she says they do. (we've never tried KY brand, which is what they use at the genecologist, but I'm alittle embarasses about saying, "Hey can we use lubricant tonight." :)

Any thoughts? Anybody been through something similar?

Birth control makes her sick and doesn't control her period, condoms make it unenjoyable for her, and pulling out makes it unenjoyable for me although I do it anyway, creams and spermicides are "messy". And she doesn't want either of us to get "fixed" right now. So there's the fear of getting pregnant, again. What do you guys suggest?

Paul • 10/10/03; 11:47:54 AM

You asked for suggestions, but first let me give you a few facts. I also suffer from having Fibromyalgia. No one that I know has every had it cured at the altar. I belong to a website that is a support system for people with it. Alot of what you are describing are symptoms of it.

Now, I am going to say something that is going to cause me to get a lot of flack but here goes anyway. Sit her down, tell her your feelings, and ask if it would be possible to open the marriage. I know, that is simple for me to say but as a single woman, I can't tell you the number of times that I have heard stories just like yours, as the men eventually become fed up, begin to hate the woman that they live with, and are looking for a woman that doesn't have all the problems.

Before anyone asks, yes, I have had sex with married men. I don't have a problem with it. But that is neither here nor there. It is a fact that sooner or later the resentment is going to set in and then there will be a real problem.

Lynn • 10/10/03; 4:31:07 PM

It sounds like she has a lot of other issues than just the health ones. Ones where you're having to cope with the symptoms of, that she doesn't seem to be taking much personal responsability for. The resulting mess of good intentions and patched frustrations, has made a mess so complicated I'm surprised you're still around.

There is a certain amount of co-dependancy going on, I suspect.

Jeff • 10/10/03; 8:32:05 PM

Wow, Paul, you do have a lot of challenges here.

However, I think one place to concentrate might be on the discomfort issue. You say you use lubrication, but have not yet tried KY. That was puzzling to me. What have you used? The reason KY is such a sovereign sexual lubricant is because it is has no additives (like flavors or scents) that might cause irritation.

The "burning" sensation your wife complains of sounds like a combination of friction and a chemical or allergic reaction. Petroleum jelly isn't good because it "seals in" whatever chemicals are in the mix, it is hard for the body to get rid of afterwards, it destroys condoms, and it just doesn't feel right (not slippery enough).

Condoms are notorious for causing problems because the rubber creates major internal friction without lots and LOTS of lube. You might be able to use condoms again if you get some KY in there. I don't really understand why you are asking whether you can use lubrication. It really should be a kind of understood thing that you will, given her discomfort problems.

The note about her finding spermicide "messy" makes me nervous, though, given that using enough lubrication will also prove "messy." You might want to put a towel under you in the bed so you can just toss the "wet spot" in the hamper afterward.

Hang in there. Don't lose hope.

Julia Grey • 10/13/03; 7:53:56 AM

Just a quick comment regarding KY - I have experienced the "burning" discomfort with KY, but not with other lubes, such as Astroglide. So KY is not necessarily the best lube - try different ones to find what's right for both of you.

To me, it sounds like she is pushing you away for some reason. It may be entirely due to some shame she clings to, probably because of her physical problems, but on a less conscious level, might also be due to the rape by her brother. Has she ever had counseling? I'm wondering because I'm thinking that maybe some (most?) of her physical problems may be stemming from stress. She should consider going to talk to someone, and try to sort out her feelings about things. Just my .02 cents.

Jim M • 10/13/03; 9:34:47 AM

On the "burning" and lubes, we've settled on "Slippery Stuff" as the best compromise of longevity, non-stickiness, and sensitivity. Definitely don't settle if one is giving you problems, they really are different.

Dan Lyke • 10/13/03; 9:58:19 AM

Fibromyalgia reacts negatively to any sort of stress, stress just causes flareups and as long as the stress is there so is the flareup.

My suggestion is to get her to a good rheumotologist as quickly as possible.

Most people with Fibro are sensitive to every drug or most any other substance known to people. We can have very strange reactions to prescription medications.

Lynn • 10/13/03; 2:59:16 PM

A few things are going through my mind and some are frankly speculative.

1) Was it rape or consentual incest? She may characterize the one as the other as sort of a defence mechanism against feeling guilty (wholey unnecessary, but it happens). The net effect being that she is highly resistant to engaging in any type of consentual sex.

2) Okay, she is bathing and indicates sex isn't likely. Rather than discuss it, why not just take that as a maybe. I assume this is a master bathroom, you're in. What to stop you from kissing her near the bed, looking longingly into her eyes and saying "I know your tired. Just lay back and relax, because I would love to lick your pussy." Then it's much more her getting sex then you.

3) Give up. Work out an accomodation either within the marriage or out of it. No reason you can't live together either way.

Roy Kay • 10/13/03; 4:20:41 PM

"She refuses to expose [her brother] for what he did to her because she dosen't want to ruin any chance of him being a part of the family, since he has so many other problems. (Drug Abuse, lying, stealing, etc.)."

Paul: She needs SERIOUS counseling, either with or without you. Her brother's mistreatment of her, combined with her total refusal to put her interests first in her life, as implied in the above quote, are probably causing or exacerbating nearly all of her other problems, physical and emotional. I have no doubt that her refusal to confront her brother or what he did to her is increasing her frustration, hopelessness and resentment (as evidenced by her temper, grudge-holding, giving up easily, feelings of ugliness and unworthiness, etc.). These problems MUST be dealt with, sex or no sex, and the LEAST helpful thing you can do, for you or her, is to let her continue to avoid these problems and use you as a punching bag.

Raging Bee • 10/15/03; 11:50:25 AM

Dave may be right, BUT it is sometimes very difficult to find good therapy at a reasonable price, and some forms of therapy can actually enhance a person's feelings of inadequacy and anger by emphasizing their "failings" and problems, dredging up and dwelling on the past, and encouraging too much talk about how others have let them down.

Therapy that de-emphasizes the past, asks the client to see what's good about his or her life, face up to themselves, and look forward to the future is generally pretty useful, but it is, strangely enough, sometimes actively resisted by some people. It's as if they would prefer to remain "troubled" and blaming, telling themselves and the therapist a dramatic story about why they have not succeeded in life and why they almost have a "right" to be (and remain) unhappy. For these people therapy that encourages them to dwell on that story is not only unproductive, it's counter-productive.

So I'd suggest that you ask potential therapists about their general approach, and be cautious about those who seem to put too much emphasis on trying to find all the causes of your current problems in the past.

I would also recommend that counseling to address serious personal trauma be INDIVIDUAL counseling, not joint counseling, at least at first.

Again, this is just MY opinion. As I said before, this ain't the Church of Julia Grey.

Julia Grey • 10/16/03; 9:33:24 AM

Here's a far more radical suggestion: she could expose both her brother's past treatment of her and his current misdeeds, announce that she will no longer tolerate them in her life, and judge her family on their reaction. This will benefit her by allowing her to assert her own interests overtly and take back some measure of control of her life. In the long run, it will also benefit her brother, by letting him know that at least one of his family is no longer cutting him any slack, and encouraging (forcing?) him to clean up his act.

Narcotics Anonymous is full of people who chose to get sober only when their families tore off the curtains and camouflage nets and said "NO MORE!"

Raging Bee • 10/17/03; 1:40:48 PM

Therapy, therapy. Paying people to be your friend. Sad.

E Lake • 10/18/03; 4:45:49 PM

What is even sadder to me is that here is a man who is at his wit's end, but yet the apparent woman that he adores is to wrapped up in her world to see what is coming.

Ahhh, the stories that I could tell about both. Men at the end of their ropes because of situations like this and the mental health system in the United States.

Lynn • 10/20/03; 2:48:09 AM

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